Castrato vs. Countertenor

I recently had another person ask my opinion comparing the voices of countertenors / sopranists / male sopranos with that of castrati, as I have had several times previously. Part of my reply was that to attempt to equate them was rather like "comparing apples and oranges," different (although similar) things.

Obviously, three major problems exist in attempting such a comparison. 1) None of us has heard an opera-quality castrato, and most interested persons have done little if any research into those voices. This can result in misleading conclusions. 2) The physiology of castrati is different from intact males, and the full extent of those differences is surprising. 3) The mechanism by which the singing voice is produced understandably is different.

1) As we all know, we can dismiss the poor recordings of Moreschi for much hint as to the true, opera-castrato voice. As for natural male sopranos: I love Radu's voice, and I owe this inspiration for prompting me to be involved in all that I am doing right now with video productions, posted comments, and interactions with other interested persons. Yet, Radu's light voice might have been considered in Baroque times as similar to that of an average castrato voice, perhaps not suitable for opera as was Farinelli or Caffarelli, but more suited for contate or religious works, such as the two Carissimi recordings which I have uploaded and in which he shines.

In my years of research on castrati, I have read contemporary accounts written by musicians and other informed persons describing in detail the sound and technique of the castrato voice. We also have accounts of their extensive vocal and musical training as well as the ideal vocal qualities that they always strived for.

2) Further, modern medical research into voice production gives additional evidence of the influences setting the castrati apart from countertenors.

3) Current singers, and espeically those trained as countertenors, as well as several members of this site, already have a basic understanding of current methods of producing a singing voice; and I am sure that you can add further insight.

The first thing is that one can not talk about "the" castrato voice.
It's one of the humans most exclusive gifts to be different, no soprano sounds excactly the same like another. So why should the dark contralto of Senesino's voice be so far from f.e. Scholl's voice?
I'll give you another example: Till today there are rumours that still in the sixties there should have been a castrato in the Capella Sistina.
This man existed, but he was no castrato, he was a "falsettist" but he was so good that even the Pope could not differ between the real castratos he heard in his youth and this man.
You can't say either that the physical "Status" makes a big different to countertenors. f.e. Farinelli was thinn but Bernacchi and Nicolini fat, so even there is so much variabilitiy in being that you can't say a castrato had this physiognomics and a Countertenor has'nt.
Another example: In the Baroque-era people often weren't able to decide if a voice was male or female (especially when a castrato sang a female role). So the sound can't have been that different from a woman. And woman have stayed in the world till now, so we "know" (even if not directly) how the castratos sounded (and i didn't even mention the written sources of the castrato voice sound).


So according to my explanations a good Castrato-like Countertenor is somebody who:
-first is educated in the right technique ( and harmony and so one. because this was the thing, that was equal to most of the castrati AND female voices (it is the connection between female role sung by castrato and woman)

- second who is able to have different colours in his voice (from a dark male sound to the lightest angelic singing. The timbre of the voice wsn't that different. For example often they had a tenor register (Tenducci was able to sing tenor arias in original range). Of course the "normal" sound was much more female and infantil (they used their dark voiuce for heroic war arias). If they sang love arias they needed a different voice sound. and even GOOD Countertenors are able to have this. It's all a question of hich rooms of resonance i use (and this is a question of good technique)(ass soon I'll have uploaded the first recording of me you'll hear what I mean)

Sorry. I just assumed that the readers of my previously posted piece would realize that they would interpret the piece knowing certain givens, such as that humans have some variations in the sound of their singing voices, just as there are variations in the sounds of violins. One would not (or should not), however, confuse the sound of the violin for that of another family of instruments. And, I would hope that people would not confuse one category of voice for others. We, therefore, are talking about a general classification of vocal sounds, not the precise differences within that classification.

Why talk about the differences between the general sound of the castrato voice and that of female and male adults? The answer is because, simply said, there are differences. Mind you, some people do not care whether differences exist (or existed) or not. As long as one can hit the notes, that's fine. I have seen that in operas. Or considering the limited number of truly good countertenors and the extreme rarity of male sopranos, a certain degree of compromise is acceptable by casting a male role as a "pants role," as long as the singer has a reasonable grasp of the male sound and Baroque vocal style. I heard this done relatively well in a production of Monteverdi's "Coronation of Poppea," and I will hear the same singer again in Handel's "Rinaldo."

Also interestingly enough, just as there are physical differences in human beings, there aso are differences in one's ability to perceive accurately differences in sound, a major, necessary element to appreciate fully music. For example, I am blessed with (or cursed with?) the ability to discern minor differences in sound. I frequently am able to identify not only singers' voices on the radio, but also brands of pianos. Yet at the same time, a couple who are friends of mine and who have listened to broadcast operas for many years and have attended many live performances admit to not being able to tell the difference between singer's voices or even that between a female and a male. It is not any lack of training upon their part, it simply is individual brain function. Consequently, I frequently have heard inexperienced people, upon hearing a countertenor or male soprano, "He sounds just like a woman!" when, in fact, the differences are obvious to me and to other listeners.

As for as Baroque audiences "not being able to tell the difference between castrato and female voices:" We all know that, for various reasons, castrati often sang female roles. In all my research, however, I never have come across any information that suggested that audiences could not tell the difference. Obviously also, no chance for comparison of opera singers or church singers would have existed in Papal states.

Because of genetic influences upon human growth, one should be able to hear the differences between young boys and girls voices. Having boys-only choirs is not simply prejudice nor tradition, there are definite differences in sound between boys' choirs and children's choirs. Because of subsequent maturation, both adult male and, yes even female, voice structure is different from the altered male. An obvious example of difference is location of the larynx.

Some singers today, as a result of their own physiology and extensive training, can more closely resemble the castrato sound than others. As was pointed out, Andreas Scholl is a prime example. Most alto countertenors, however, have acceptable voices but do not succeed nearly so well as Andreas, and one can hear a particular sound that marks them a falsetto. Falsetto sopranists are even more obvious, as in the example of Aris Christofellis.

I am sorry that I have had to, but have been willing to, take time to clarify the theme of this thread. My hope was that informed people would use the initial posting as a point of departure for more in-depth discussion and personal insights. I certainly hope that this occurs.

Excluding larynx position ( by the way, could you find a picture showing the difference for clarification purposes? ), does the physiology between castrati and other singers really affect their sound at all? Castrati weren't all the same in physiology, some looked quite normal, take Moreschi for example, he looks like a normal ( but perhaps somewhat over average handsome ) man.



Perhaps in some cases, but that is probably due to the individual's genes, not because he is a castrato. Discerning the difference between a castrato's voice and a modern true male soprano's is probably not very possible unless you'd get to hear at least a handful of each. What is the difference anyway other than training? They say it's that all of today's male sopranos' voices have slightly changed and are not that of a boy's, but wasn't that the case with some castrati as well? Wasn't Senesino operated when he was 13? Couldn't his voice have matured a little by then ( he was a contralto, wasn't he? ). The greatest of castrati of course had bigger voices, but that's because they were super singers, not because they were castrati. Some of them had abnormally large chests but genes are a factor there as well, some perhaps didn't have too big chests at all, but those who did definitely boasted of slightly greater power.

I agree with you that it would well be possible to discern the sound of a castrato from a woman's since I have no problem doing it with male and female sopranos. However, just like today, not everyone in the audience may have been able to do so. There's no doubt that they could train themselves to sing and sound like women, but that would've been ridiculous to do ( yet this happens today with good potentials like David Korn ). A modern example of that might be Frank Ivallo.

Note that I have not done as much research as sfkcbf and therefore my response should not be taken too seriously . He may have read something that promotes that there may well have been wast differences in the sound of castrati and modern male sopranos and indeed I think the sound of Moreschi is quite different from everything I've heard but that is perhaps due to the very special way he sings in and the poor quality of the recording.



The singer Randall Wong makes it very hard for me to understand what a countertenor is. Is it just someone who has problems with his vocal production and can't find the proper head voice? Another singer, Patrick Husson contributes to this confusion as well. Therefore, I am quite unable to compare castrati to countertenors because I hadn't been listening to normal countertenors for more than perhaps a month before I heard Wong's voice. Are we simply to ignore their acheivements and "promote" them from countertenor to male soprano? Note that no matter how weird it may seem, women and castrati had falsetto as well although they never used it ( and perhaps didn't know how to ).

As far as I've heard, Scholl doesn't refer to his voice as falsetto but as head voice. On the contrary, he says 'every man has this voice' which means that he perhaps simply chooses to ignore the word falsetto and call it head voice. I find however that Scholl's voice does sound like a normal countertenor's in that it is not like Wong's or Husson's, but still a very extraordinary voice of course.

This is going to be a very flavoured topic .

The only thing i wanted to say is that a voice-sound depends also on technique and not only on the "biological things". F.e. there is a difference between using mainly the "masque"(lighter voice ) and using the Resonances with an extremly opened throat (darker voice).
So one can't say that the SOUND (not the biological "basement") is different, because nobody heard them really. I only wanted you to prevent from statements like "The voice sound of the castrati was all different from todays human beings and nobody should even try to replace them because he will fail"

Thank goodness no one on this site has made a statement like the quotation in the previous posting! Perhaps a major contribution of an informed discussion site such as this is that there ARE ways of approximating the voice of the castrato in today's reproductions of Baroque operas and other vocal works to a satisfying degree, and these ways can be discussed.

The problem lies with the fact that the revival of interest in Baroque vocal music is historically relatively new, and even many trained professionals are less familiar with the Baroque sound and technical style, as is much of the audience. Consequently, some people have better understanding than others conerning how to attempt to achieve those approximations.

As an example, I know one opera director not far from my city who is quite knowledgeable and also has the desire to make every attempt to reach quality approximations in his selection of singers. The mezzo upon whom he has relied has an unusually male timbre, a very controlled vibrato, and also has learned to act in a manner similar to males. Her performances have been quite convincing. In addition, the director has relied upon better-quality countertenors and even a male soprano to achieve his standards.

In contrast, the former director of my city opera produced a disastorous rendtion of Handel's "Giulio Cesare." Included in his several misbegotten decisions was his selection of totally inappropriate sounding voices. Either he did not know better, or he just did not care. Even the two local, older music critics admitted that knew relatively nothing about Baroque opera and, consequently, ignored the opera voices in their reviews, rather concetrating upon the staging and direction. Their training and experience had been what generally was taught during the 20th century.

Of course, my hope is that, not only opera audiences, but also professionals will demonstrate a greater desire to become informed and to improve the quality of their understanding and their opera productions.

There i totally agree with you